""It is NOT the Father doing the testifying DRRR"
Rubbish Wotsup, all scripture is God breathed, written under inspiration!
So yes, John has faithfully recorded that the Father has testified that Jesus is true God and eternal life."
Tonio, DON'T take me for a fool, by twisting the context that you initially put foreword, in that God was directly speaking here and that it was not relayed by another person of what they heard or received from God.
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"Eternal life was always going to be through Jesus and with Jesus and in Jesus to the Glory of the almighty Father."
Lets put a bit more truth to that one, you know the WHOLE TRUTH -> 17:2,3 - just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him,He may give eternal life.
Where's your Co equals here Chum??????????
NO, there is NOT hint in this verse or anywhere in the Bible, that this only speaks of the flesh aspect of Jesus, those claims are simply the creation of men.
Through a future Jesus to be, no one is denying this simple fact, it was a hidden mystery = LOGOS hid in God.
Gen 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Not to mention one more of many, Rev 13:8, the Lamb pre slain in the mind and plans of the Only True God and Father, that Jesus independently of himself, clearly defines in 17:3 and Many other scriptures.
Not one single prophesy of many in the OT even hints at, that the one that would come, already existed in some way shape of form, other than a plan in the mind of Yehowah, BECAUSE there was no Jesus in any way shape or form.
The very reason that pre the cross, that we NEVER see words from Jesus,I go BACK to the Father.
--------------de: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)Original Word: δέ
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: de
Phonetic Spelling: (deh)
Definition: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)
"'now this is eternal life' is ok but not the reverse ' this now is eternal life'"
Do your homework, I just read that it is Never used as the first word, so you're talking H/S.
17:2,3 - just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
This now is the eternal life, that they should know You (Father) the Only True God and whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.
"This" is NOT negotiable, and the "but" and "and" are certainly not appropriate considering the flow on from the verse before it.
Not to mention, the OT is very, very CLEAR, that Yehowah ALONE was the ONLY saviour, back in those times, so scripture has to interpret scripture, hence my explanation, re the "now", showing a change from OT times, flows with the True Biblical flow, in that now, eternal life is through the Father and the Son and not also through some created being, a god the holy spirit = another god and Idol.
Many Bibles in the Bible Hub, use "now" as well.
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"Wrong again Wotsup,
You have stated correctly that the Holy Spirit is the Advocate.
If the Advocate is the Father who is the greater God that he advocates to, on your behalf?
The Father advocating to himself is just plain silly."
OH boy, has 2 Thes 2:11 well and truly got a hold of you.
14:16 I will ask the Father, and another helper (comforter, a consoler, aid) He will give you. (replacing Jesus)
"Another" = to replace Jesus who would be leaving, who was their comforter etc while here.
So the comforting etc silly man, is to the people and NOT to a greater God who will do the comforting, where have you gotten this hair brain idea from, Father advocating to himself and not to the people, hmmmmm
The comforter etc, is the Spirit of truth, who the Bible says glorified Jesus, and we know that was the Father, just as we know that the Holy Spirit is Jesus's Father, as Luke unquestionably shows, well.................to THOSE of God.
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Oh NO, more delusions, YOU cannot from Jesus's words, truthfully deny that he independently of himself, defines the Father as the Only True God.
"Sorry for you Wotsup, but you are wrong again."
Jesus's words and Not yours, CLEARLY show I'm 100% CORRECT, in the above.
"Jesus is never independent of the Father."
Do you go to the same school as ppm, to be taught your confusion ???????????????
In the context of who he is telling us, who the Only True God is, he most definitely is not claiming to be this only true God or part of the make up of this only true God.
He repeatedly says, that he is the Son of Him, the very reason that John wrote the Book of John, was to show this and not that he was God, or God man or God in the flesh etc, and YOU Tonio, toss John's words in the bin.
Jesus was doing the Fathers will and not his own = he obviously has one of his own, independent of the Father.
But he chose to work in Unity with the Father, to Complete the works that the God and Father gave him.
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I and the Father are one = One in word which when your brain is able to digest the true and full context of this, you will see that it automatically produces Unity in ONE, that the God and Father is, so he can become ALL in ALL.
So lets let Jesus interpret what he is Clearly saying here, you know that WHOLE truth that makes you lot Tremble.
You NEED to get it through your head, there is One Key key to the Bible = WORD, words and take notice of the yellow highlights in the first two verses, as that is the topic, theme of what these passage are about.
John 17:20-24 - Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So that ->they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory (word) which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: = In word.
I in them, and thou in me (by words = spirit of them), that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory (words), which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (In the mind and plans of God, for the Jesus to be).
One as they are one, will that make them God also = NO, Just as it doesn't make Jesus God.
You can Only become one as they are one, by accepting to word of God, living and breathing it etc, it becoming you = Hence the glory here has to be referring to the word of God, just like it does in the following.
John 1:14 ..................and we beheld the glory (word) of Him, glory (word) as only begotten by the side of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The fact that glory is grace and truth, tells you that glory is the word of God.
John 17:17 - Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
"in one;" -> So that God who Jesus defined as the only true God when here, maybe all in all.
"be with me where I am" -> where was Jesus at that moment in time;
John 17:16 - They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Like Jesus, they didn't come floating down from heaven.
They are of God, of Heaven, of the above.
The following people, are Jews and not the ones mention in 17:16
John 8:23 - And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
This verse is in the Exact same context as 17:16, Jesus in no way, is referring to himself being literally from above, but spiritually from above.
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ANYWAY TONIO, WITH YOUR DENIAL THAT JESUS CLEARLY AND INDEPENDENTLY OF HIMSELF, DEFINES THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD WHEN HERE, SHOWS US THAT 2 THES 2:11, HAS DEFINITLY GOT A HOLD OF YOU, AS THERE IS NO OTHER PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR IT.
